waterscroll | IkeSen and SLBP Kenshin

IkeSen Kenshin was enjoyable but I don't have a ton to say about it. Like most IkeSen route it was highly fanservice-y, serving enjoyable tropes while doing its best to respect MC's agency and consent. Here the trope was yandere and imprisonment. I didn't overthink it too much, but it did some clever things to run those tropes in a consent-y way. MC meets Kenshin when her friend Sasuke introduces her to Kenshin as his employer. MC decides not to tell Kenshin that she's working for Nobunaga but rather to say that she's working as a housekeeper for a wealthy family. MC and Kenshin keep meeting as Kenshin is investigating in preparation for war, she knows who he is but he doesn't know the truth about who she is. They go on a date and drink sake together and talk and get to know each other.

Then, next time there's a battle, Kenshin sees MC with the enemy forces and realizes that he's been tricked. When she falls off her horse and he takes her as a POW it seemed like an entirely reasonable thing to do under the circumstances. Even though she was more or less an enemy combatant (she wasn't fighting, but she was on the battlefield with the Oda forces) he treats her very well. He comes to visit her and makes sure she has everything she needs and at one point brings her bunnies to play with. It's very cute, and if you like prison romances it's a likeable one. Eventually they both come to understand that her feelings for him are stronger than her loyalty to the Oda forces, and he carries her out of prison to his bedroom and they live happily ever after.

Except that he's still at war with the Oda. So the second half of the route is her trying and eventually succeeding at putting a stop to that. There's other stuff going on too, he's traumatized by the suicide of his first girlfriend so he's terrified that something will harm her and gets all yandere about that. But he gets over it.

Anyway, I enjoyed it, but mostly because it was tropes that I like played in a way that I could enjoy them.

Now I'm replaying Mitsunari's route. So far I'm not finding the replay worth it, the scenes from his POV haven't added much. But I'm only on chapter 5 and we'll see.

Meanwhile, SLBP Kenshin is very much not like IkeSen Kenshin. He's gentle and very sweet, and though he also has traumas he mostly deals with them by being a hoarder and obsessively finding the beauty in everything. It reminds me of Mitsuhide's route in how slow and subtle it is, but I'm not liking it as much, possibly because Mitsuhide was more religious and Kenshin is more about aesthetics. In some ways it's even slower, I just finished chapter 8 and it's ony sort of begun to occur to MC that she might have feelings for Kenshin. It's mostly slice-of-life getting to know Kenshin and his retainers/extended family. Some of them are lovely characters, although none have routes yet. It looks like Kaegie will get one soon, but I would really like to see a route for Kanetsugu, Kenshin's no-nonsense practically-minded retainer who is an extremely devoted single dad and goes around with his daughter's name in big characters on his helmet.

I'm thinking I'll finish up this route around when Nobunaga's act 3 comes out, since it looks like it will be out March 8. Can't wait!

Meanwhile one PSA about the current event story - you don't get free energy hearts (and closet space) for reading. (ETA: This was fixed, you get the things now.) ~~So I did my normal strategy of burning 50-60 energy hearts in the double points and coins fever at the beginning, because that way I end up with more in the end, and whoops, wrong strategy.~~ As far as the stories themselves - I thought the Shingen one was ridiculous and he was acting like a caricature of himself, but I like the Saizo one, I thought it was an unusual take on him.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

waterscroll

Nice to see you here! And thank you for the very long comment you left on AO3, you write the best comments. I'll respond when I have more brain to think with.

Yes, the yandere comes with bunnies. IkeSen certainly doesn't stint on the fanservice.

The armor is ridiculous. But yes, his daughter's name is Ai, which makes his ridiculous helmet...still ridiculous, but in an endearing sort of way.

From:

scytale

I'm glad you like the comment! And I have already said this at length, but I love the fic. <3 I really enjoy the way you expand on the characters and the relationships!

But yes, his daughter's name is Ai, which makes his ridiculous helmet...still ridiculous, but in an endearing sort of way.

...my new theory is that his daughter designed his helmet and he wears it out of love.

And maybe she designed Kenshin's winged chrome headband helmet (typing this out makes it sound even more ridiculous) too. But I feel like he might actually like it.

From:

waterscroll

I don't know if you want to spend four peals to be mad at someone but if you do the Hideyoshi epilogue from the last ES (still on sale for another 2 hours or so) is *something*. It's from his POV and you get to see him calculatedly throw her off and manipulate her reactions, more or less just for the fun of showing he can, after she's already declared her love for him. If you don't get it I may have to type out some lines for you. I was worries I was going overboard with that whole concubine thing in my fic but nope, now I don't think so anymore.

...my new theory is that his daughter designed his helmet and he wears it out of love.

Awww. Because putting her name in big letters on it is so something a little kid would do.

Haha and yes this does explain Kenshin's odd helmet choice too!

From:

scytale

...I would totally spend 4 pearls to be mad at Hideyoshi. Hideyoshi is my game hatecrush right now. ;) But sadly, I didn't do his story! And whoa, yes please. :D

On another note -- I just tried to look up Kanetsugu's terrible armor again without success...but I did manage to find this CG of Mitsuhide and Kenshin being adorable https://www.pinterest.com/pin/854487729275551036/ . I don't know where it is from but the CG is gorgeous and I really really wonder how they would interact. o.o There are so many different angles they could play off -- the Buddhism, their appreciation for simple beauty, the enemies, and the kindness.

From:

waterscroll

So the context is, they are out for a walk and talking about things they'd like to do together. She's saying things like, going to the summer festival and making snowmen in the winter. And remember, they've just started dating and haven't had their first kiss yet. The non-dialogue parts are in his POV.

Hideyoshi: MC, when do you want to become a mother?
It's a dangerous question to ask, and a tease at best, but she blushes just as I thought she would, vivid even in the sun.
MC: Wha...
(Hells, you're too much.) I love her for it, though, even as I refuse to let her get away without answering. What I do not expect is how seriously she answers, even if what she says has its share of hesitation.
MC: I...I guess I'd want to be at least the same age my mother was when she had me.
(Hm? I thought for sure she'd say 'I'm not ready for that...)
Not only am I surprised to see her defy my expectations yet again, but her adorable little stammer is a horrible tease as well. My mind is already thinking of more games to play, of more ways to sate my heart's desire to see what else I can get her to show me.
Hideyoshi: So, what about a bride, then?
MC: What? Where did this come from? I don't...
She may be scrambling to find a way to fill time, but she is just as earnest in thinking of an answer. Ah, I can't take this. My initial thought has not changed, of course. I couldn't care less who is watching, I just want to be touching her.
Hideyoshi: Sorry, sorry. I guess I put my cart before the horse on that one, didn't I. What about this? When would you like to see what it's like to hold my hand?
As I ask, I offer it to her.
MC: Oh...! Her eyebrows raise a little in surprise, but her face softens shortly after.
I had only meant to tease her a little, but hells, that first touch of her hand.

*

I bought this epilogue tonight because I was procrastinating on it, so I hadn't read it when I wrote the fic, but damn.

From:

scytale

...O_O

Thank you so much for typing it up, and just, whoooa. And yeah, he is so calculating and manipulative throughout this! He reminds me a bit of a cat playing with a mouse. And the way he equates her embarrassed stammer to his own deliberate comments, even though the two very much aren't the same at all.

My mind is already thinking of more games to play, of more ways to sate my heart's desire to see what else I can get her to show me.

Wow. This is Nobuyuki levels of creepy.

From:

waterscroll

Yeah, I think this is why Hideyoshi is so unpopular as a LI, he might be fascinating but I can't imagine anyone has fantasies of being treated like this. Even Ieyasu you can sort of get wanting to be his MC and it is kind of fun to imagine standing up to someone like that and laughing at his threats. It can even be sort of fun imagining being Nobunaga's batshit Divine Bride. But with Hideyoshi it always feels like MC is sort of the butt of his jokes and like she is always out of her depth. Except in the Appetite ES, which I loved. Also there was one ES in which she yelled at him while he was being sweetly manipulative, and that was nice. But usually it's more like this, him playing a game of wits with her as an object. And there's nothing fun about that. What would be fun would be to be the one person who sees through his manipulations and games, calls him on it, and somehow loves him anyway. I have no idea why they didn't write his MC like that, but unfortunately they mostly didn't.

From:

scytale

Even Ieyasu you can sort of get wanting to be his MC and it is kind of fun to imagine standing up to someone like that and laughing at his threats.

Heh, I think Ieyasu is actually one of the iddiest for me! His stories hit my miscommunication and loyalty kinks pretty hard. His ES are getting repetitive because they keep hitting the same notes, but I still do them first.

The fact that she's aware of what's going on with his awfulness, and often more aware of it than he actually is, makes the power imbalances feel more palatable to me, at least in a story. And I think the story is deliberately about giving Ieyasu's MC power over him, in a way Hideyoshi's doesn't seem to be -- she's going to be his queen, he'll ruin all of his military plans for her, he'll never be happy unless she's with him.

And I like the "character A is aware of and accepts (and helps or enables) character B's terrible trauma" trope that's going on with Ieyasu's MC.

Except in the Appetite ES, which I loved. Also there was one ES in which she yelled at him while he was being sweetly manipulative, and that was nice.

Which was the Appetite ES?

And oh yes, I remember the ES where she yells at him about being sweetly manipulative! It was really nice, and if I recall correctly, he tried his best to not manipulate her. Which for Hideyoshi is like trying not to breathe.

What would be fun would be to be the one person who sees through his manipulations and games, calls him on it, and somehow loves him anyway.

Yes! I would also take a power fantasy where MC is just as manipulative and buys into his worldview, and the two of them happily manipulate their way to power and ruin other people's lives for each other without any compunction. Or something where he teaches her politics (and seduction). So many things I would have liked better than this!

I think this was partly what made Nobunaga's route work for me, in the end -- they were just such a match.

From:

waterscroll

Which was the Appetite ES?

The courtesan one.

I would also take a power fantasy where MC is just as manipulative and buys into his worldview, and the two of them happily manipulate their way to power and ruin other people's lives for each other without any compunction. Or something where he teaches her politics

I wonder if the Kyoichiro route is either of these, with Hideyoshi and Kyoichiro being manipulative and deceptive together. I'll have to do that route and see, I suppose. Well, after Nobunaga's act 3.

Re: Hideyoshi's hapless MC, I keep wondering if there's some long game planned, that in act 2 we're going to see MC's reactions to Hideyoshi's descent into awfulness and her dawning realization that he's not what he appears to be. Or something like that.

Apparently in Kojuro's act 2 we see Hideyoshi as Divine Ruler and it's not pretty. That's another route I should do at some point, I always like Kojuro's ESes and he seems like one of the best boyfriends out of the bunch.

We also see Hideyoshi as Divine Ruler in Mitsunari's Act 2, but it's filtered through Mitsunari's devotion so we don't see a lot of his sketchiness, and the invasion of Korea never gets mentioned at all.

From:

scytale

The courtesan one.

Oh! Yes.

I wonder if the Kyoichiro route is either of these, with Hideyoshi and Kyoichiro being manipulative and deceptive together. I'll have to do that route and see, I suppose

I think Kyoichiro is supposed to be Ishikawa Goemon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_Goemon) the thief/outlaw.

And from the Wiki article, it seems he tries to assassinate Hideyoshi and ends up getting killed by him. (And apparently was possibly trained by Momochi Sandayu, Saizo's scary mentor!)

...But I have no idea what is going on with him, really. o.o And I wonder if the game will keep his political views.

But he does seem like the kind of person who would play both sides.

I keep wondering if there's some long game planned, that in act 2 we're going to see MC's reactions to Hideyoshi's descent into awfulness and her dawning realization that he's not what he appears to be.

I wonder that too. There's an ambiguous preview here: https://miminorenai.tumblr.com/post/176480814450/wistful-wisteria-hideyoshi-act-2-summary

Apparently in Kojuro's act 2 we see Hideyoshi as Divine Ruler and it's not pretty. That's another route I should do at some point, I always like Kojuro's ESes and he seems like one of the best boyfriends out of the bunch.

I read something earlier about how excellent Hideyoshi is as a villain in that route! And I know, so many routes that take forever to get through.

From:

waterscroll

Oh and total squee at Mitsuhide/Kenshin. They are lovely together.

From:

scytale

:D

ETA: I found a summary! https://otome-reviews.tumblr.com/post/171601021406/slbp-riot-of-the-heart-hideyoshi-ieyasu-kenshin

The other summaries feature Hideyoshi seducing Tadakatsu (and on the less good note, a Saizo & Hideyoshi thing that initially got me very excited but turned out to sound rather boring?). And there is more in part 2 (https://otome-reviews.tumblr.com/post/171714362809/slbp-riot-of-the-heart), with Masamune and Mitsunari being AWKWARD NERD RIVALS and Shingen checkint out Kojuro.

...maybe they'll bring old events back someday, SIGH.

Edited Date: 2020-03-03 02:28 am (UTC)

From:

scytale

And to answer your comment from AO3:

Heh, yes, I think you like Hideyoshi more than I do. I think he's probably the SLBP character I feel the most strongly about right now. I do love to hate him, because he's so memorable and fascinating, and having strong feelings about fictional characters is very fun because I don't have to do anything about them or question whether they're justified. ;) And his equal-opportunity awfulness is more fun to think about than some of the other awfulness in the game.

I think I might have liked him better as a person if I'd seen his angsty backstory and his niceness before I'd seen the effect he has on the people around him... But my first event with Hideyoshi with him manipulating Yukimura's MC is "Sultry Nights", and then the next one I saw was the one with Mitsunari's MC and the mark. :P

And I think he wants what's best for Mitsunari, although he also wants to make sure the monks stay demilitarized by taking their one strategist away from them.

Oh, I didn't catch that was what he was doing! I thought he was just recruiting. :O Clever.

I can definitely see how he could think of himself as the good guy here, doing what's best for the monks and Mitsunari. Nobunaga is going to win anyway and will have a more violent reprisal against the monks. He's saving people, even from themselves! And the monks are using Saki, and they don't even have the grace of being good at it, or else they wouldn't have sent her to Hideyoshi. They're going to get Saki killed eventually, because her brilliance isn't going to be a match for Nobunaga's armies in the end. Of course, Hideyoshi will use her too, but that's just how things go, but he'll also watch over her and make sure she can achieve her ambitions.

And he's so good himself at adapting and good at maintaining appearances and doing what is necessary that I can see how it's hard for him to see the effect on Mitsunari.

I'm glad you had fun writing the story! :D And I hope you come back to the pairing again.

Also I'm convinced *someone* writing SLBP must have noticed that what they put on screen was 1. Hideyoshi is irresistible to women 2. Mitsunari was living as a woman when he met Hideyoshi 3. Mitsunari is in love with Hideyoshi. We don't see in canon any of Hideyoshi's 1000 former (women) lovers so we don't know what happened to them, but we do see Mitsunari, and maybe that gives us some sense.

OH.

And it is interesting because the fact that he had so many female lovers and we never see (or hear?) about any of them shows just how unimportant they turned out to be in the long run.

From:

waterscroll

I honestly don't care that much about Hideyoshi's angsty backstory. He's got one, but so does everyone, so do I ffs, it's not an excuse for his kind of shenanigans. But I think what made me love him is that I first met him on Mitsunari's route and Mitsunari loves him so damned much that I felt like I had to as well. His own route mostly just made me mad at him, unfortunately.

Nobunaga is going to win anyway and will have a more violent reprisal against the monks. He's saving people, even from themselves! And the monks are using Saki, and they don't even have the grace of being good at it, or else they wouldn't have sent her to Hideyoshi. They're going to get Saki killed eventually, because her brilliance isn't going to be a match for Nobunaga's armies in the end. Of course, Hideyoshi will use her too, but that's just how things go, but he'll also watch over her and make sure she can achieve her ambitions.

Yes, exactly, all of that. And he's not wrong on any of those points.

But yeah, this:
he's so good himself at adapting and good at maintaining appearances and doing what is necessary that I can see how it's hard for him to see the effect on Mitsunari.

If Mitsunari were to explain to him that he doesn't feel comfortable living as a man all the time because that's not who he truly is (which I'm not sure about, because I'm still a little unsure about Mitsunari's gender, but let's say he said that) Hideyoshi might understand all the words but be completely baffled as to what Mitsunari was talking about. Why on earth might one have strong feelings about the way you present yourself? Why would you think that the way you choose to present yourself has *anything* to do with what you are inside? What do the two even have to do with each other? It would be completely baffling to him.

I hope you read Mitsunari's routes eventually, they are very good and extremely painful.

From:

scytale

But I think what made me love him is that I first met him on Mitsunari's route and Mitsunari loves him so damned much that I felt like I had to as well.

Aww.

let's say he said that) Hideyoshi might understand all the words but be completely baffled as to what Mitsunari was talking about. Why on earth might one have strong feelings about the way you present yourself? Why would you think that the way you choose to present yourself has *anything* to do with what you are inside? What do the two even have to do with each other? It would be completely baffling to him.

Oof, yes. I think he would try very hard to understand and figure out how to make things better... But I think the way he went about that would just make Mitsunari more unhappy, quite honestly.

Hideyoshi seems very good at getting people to do what he wants but not so good at feelings. I'm thinking back to the mark story -- if I recall correctly, it seems like Mitsunari did most of the real work of the reconciliation there and Hideyoshi just hung around Being Obviously Sad and Heartbroken.

From:

waterscroll

Oh and about the monks - in his route Mitsunari keeps visiting his mother, who is still living with the monks he grew up with, and always goes as Saki. So Mitsunari does stay connected to the monks who raised him, although they become less important in his life now that he's with Hideyoshi.

From:

waterscroll

I've been thinking about Hideyoshi's very many ex-lovers, and it does feel pretty mysterious, because the possibilities have such different implications. In IkeSen Hideyoshi also has a reputation as a womanizer and we meet a bunch of his ex-girlfriends and they make pretty clear what happened - they started dating him because he's cute and nice and then dumped him quickly because he's obviously in love with Nobunaga. SLBP!Hideyoshi *could* have a similar story, girls date him because he's sexy and then find out he's Like That and run the heck away fast. (So what makes MC so special is that she doesn't run, because she doesn't realize he's Trouble. Yeah, not someone I want to identify with.) Or he could be a former sex worker, or something similar. Or he could have spend many years having fun seducing and abandoning young women, leaving a trail of broken hearts behind. I'd really like to know which one it is!

But I had a similar problem with Shingen. Shouldn't all the women MC meets in the castle be talking about the fun one-night stands they had with him? Since he seems to be pretty open about that he has sex with literally everyone, and he seems to think they enjoy it. But maybe he's not telling the truth, just like he's not telling the truth when he tells everyone that MC is 'his woman' and lets people think he's had sex with her when he hasn't. (Kenshin does a similar thing in the last chapter I read of his.) I wouldn't be surprised if he's much less experienced than he says.

From:

scytale

Or he could have spend many years having fun seducing and abandoning young women, leaving a trail of broken hearts behind. I'd really like to know which one it is!

...I mean, I know it's an otome game, so obviously this can't happen, but I feel like a sensible move for Hideyoshi would be to get married as a way of social climbing.

Or maybe no one wants to make a political alliance with him because he *is* still a commoner.

But I had a similar problem with Shingen. Shouldn't all the women MC meets in the castle be talking about the fun one-night stands they had with him? Since he seems to be pretty open about that he has sex with literally everyone, and he seems to think they enjoy it.

I like the theory that he's not telling everything -- that definitely feels like the sort of thing he would do. Especially since "Shingen sleeps with everyone, that's part of why he's so great!!" is part of his reputation (according to Yukimura).

There's a memorable line from one of the maids in one of the ES asking if Shingen has "dipped his broad brush" into MC, or something like that. That made me think that there might have been something between them.

Otherwise, I think the only other thing that stands out to him is his line to Kansuke about finding him a woman...which goes nowhere. But that may not have been serious, and just him trying to feel like Shingen again.

From:

waterscroll

Yeah, for most of them marrying a lowborn cook is somewhat unrealistic, but I think for Hideyoshi most of all. He's such a social climber, why would he settle for a marriage that wouldn't be a political advantage? I wasn't bothered by this because in his route there's no implication that they'll get married, but it looks like in the sequel they do.

Oh, yeah, I wasn't sure what to make of that 'broad brush' line. But you could be right, that she was happy to take sex with him as a perk of the job. I wonder what that relationship was like, maybe it was fine since she seems not to expect much of him.