waterscroll | Guardian and me, May 2020

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Guardian and me, May 2020

Now up to episode 23 and I had to completely give up on every hope of remaining unspoiled for anything and go binge on every spoiler I could find. Shen Wei's sketchiness and secret-keeping was starting to get to me. Not because I was worried he was Really Bad, more the opposite - there is nothing that I love in a narrative more than a good villain redemption arc, really nothing, and I felt like canon was horribly teasing me to give me the possibility of one with a character so delicious. But I wasn't seeing any villain redemption discourse about him in fandom, so I needed to read spoilers. And ok, I guess not.

But as a consolation prize, I got to meet Ye Zun, who is apparently the go-to in the fandom for people who like to write redemption arcs for villains. Or draw them, like this. I look forward to getting to know him better. And you couldn't give him an angstier backstory, all the Pain and Awful that is life in Dixing with the Extra of being trapped in a pillar for thousands of years. When he said that line about sunflowers inevitably reaching towards the sun I couldn't help but feel his pain, no matter how murdery he was being.

It seems like the character of Ye Zun was designed to meet my particular desire to see Shen Wei be more awful than he is going to be in this canon. Rather than having him be awful, they put the awful on his twin brother who looks just like him. I'm okay with that, and thank you show for working so hard to meet the emotional needs that I am bringing to it.

Guardian (at least the TV show) does seem to be a canon in which people mostly stay in their alignment, people get introduced as good or bad or morally ambiguous and then mostly stay that way. Am I right about this? Feel free to spoil me if you have relevant spoilers.

I've been moving slowly through the TV show because it is hitting me *so* hard right now, it went from feeling very emotionally safe to hurting a lot to watch...just as soon as I got invested in the plight of the Dixing people stuck underground with no light and no schools. Right now I care about that even more than the central romance, which sort of feels like engaging with the canon wrong. (I mean, guys, be happy together or not but fix Dixing already I'm crying here.) I feel like when a canon hurts this much the only way out is through, see what gets resolved in canon and find fixit fic for the rest. So I'm definitely going to keep watching, but I'm moving slowly.

*

In novelverse things I'm reading and enjoying:

This meta about how Shen Wei's novelverse arc works in Buddhist terms.
This meta about the god Kunlun in the novel.
This genderswapped Kunlun/Ghost King art.
This lovely AU in which Shen Wei reincarnates rather than Kunlun.

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Shen Wei's sketchiness and secret-keeping was starting to get to me.

Oh, that's interesting. I definitely see the secret-keeping, but I don't see the sketchiness at all. Maybe because I'm not hoping for it. *g* Glad you found something to scratch that itch, anyway. :-)

Right now I care about that even more than the central romance, which sort of feels like engaging with the canon wrong. (I mean, guys, be happy together or not but fix Dixing already I'm crying here.)

*much hugs*

Maybe sketchiness is the wrong word. But this is why I had to go look for spoilers, because I was seeing that people who actually know Shen Wei better than I do were reading him as entirely lawful good from the beginning of his character arc to the end. And something about the combination of secretiveness and the odd sort of guilt or self-hate or something that he seems to carry, and the rumors about him, plus Da Qing being suspicious of him based on barely-remembered old memories, all made me think that maybe he was carrying around something to feel actually guilty about. Maybe something from the war between Haxing and Dixing. It looks like that was a very wrong guess though.

But I spend a lot of time with fictional semi-repentant war criminals, so it is something that I look for.

I wouldn't have suspected him of planning anything that could harm ZYL, even though in the novelverse he does, this version just seems like he wouldn't and couldn't.

I'm still not sure how to feel about the spoiler that what is *actually* going on is that he is planning a long game of murder-suicide with his brother. I expect that this is an arc that I will have very intense feelings about, but I won't know what they are until I see it.

I'll probably have intense feelings about how things get resolved in the end for Dixing too. The spoilers that I am osmosing tell me that they do get light and schools (as a result of our beloved main characters' self-sacrifice) but that they are permanently severed from Haxing, and that people have mixed feelings about this. Is that more or less right? So I expect to have intense feelings about that too.

Edited 2020-05-27 13:07 (UTC)

people who actually know Shen Wei better than I do were reading him as entirely lawful good from the beginning of his character arc to the end.

Heh. I think sometimes he's chaotic good. But definitely good. Duty first!

and the odd sort of guilt or self-hate or something that he seems to carry

Hm, I don't really see this. Do you have any examples? Maybe I'm forgetting.

I'm still not sure how to feel about the spoiler that what is *actually* going on is that he is planning a long game of murder-suicide with his brother.

I'd say it's more like a contingency plan? If they can't find another way to stop him.

The spoilers that I am osmosing tell me that they do get light and schools (as a result of our beloved main characters' self-sacrifice) but that they are permanently severed from Haxing, and that people have mixed feelings about this. Is that more or less right?

Light but no schools -- but with light, in theory, there come resources and potential easing of hardship, though we don't see that. And yes, they're permanently severed (according to one character's assessment -- he might be wrong!). People aboveground are briefly sombre about the portal being closed, but they're mostly distracted by other grieving.

I'd say it's more like a contingency plan? If they can't find another way to stop him.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. It was unbearably sad to think that even early on he was planning on dying. Of course what happens still sounds incredibly sad, it looks like this is an outchies-all-around canon. I've been devouring fixit fic to make myself better before I continue, so that at least I'll know that whatever bad things I see on screen can be fixed.

It sounds like the ending leaves a great deal to play with in terms of what happens in Dixing, so I'm grateful that fandom is taking up the challenge.

When he said that line about sunflowers inevitably reaching towards the sun I couldn't help but feel his pain, no matter how murdery he was being.

Oof.

Right now I care about that even more than the central romance, which sort of feels like engaging with the canon wrong. (I mean, guys, be happy together or not but fix Dixing already I'm crying here.)

Heh. I keep getting very engaged in the minor characters and their dumpling making, so I feel this "engaging with the canon wrong!" thing.

I love the art you linked, and the novel-verse Buddhist and myth meta. It is very cool, and I'm definitely going to be glad to have that context when I start the novel.

I thought you'd like the genderbent one! It got me thinking how Guardian would be different genderswapped, and I'm thinking possibly not very. The main thing I can think of is that novelverse ZYL's extreme sluttiness might be read or responded to differently by her team. But dramaverse ZYL doesn't canonically sleep around, he's just sexy, so in dramaverse even that might not make a difference.

But when I think about how the mythological roles might shift if they were female ghosts and deities...it might not. And for that matter, since Shen Wei's origin story is more or less just sentient bad energy, you could make a case for him not really being gendered at all, and taking on male self-presentation more or less just by default.

I feel this "engaging with the canon wrong!" thing.

I'm getting the impression that there is a lot about the canon that I'll only really notice on a rewatch. This business of not being told things is getting frustrating, I liked it much better when Shen Wei was keeping secrets from ZYL but still telling *me*. Also when ZYL was using all his resources to figure the secrets out. Although it totally makes sense from a character perspective that he'd trust Shen Wei to tell him eventually, I just find it frustrating storytelling.

I thought you'd like the genderbent one!

They are so gorgeous and the intimacy! And the costume porn! <3

But when I think about how the mythological roles might shift if they were female ghosts and deities...it might not.

This intrigues me a lot, because it actually does feel very different to me! It doesn't have to, especially in an AU world, but my understanding of Chinese mythology is that it mirrors the Chinese imperial court, with an Emperor and bureaucrats and everything.

My understanding is very osmosed, so I don't know if it's well-backed. I did read part of an m/f webnovel with worldbuilding based on Chinese mythology earlier, and I think that's impacting my impression, too. That webnovel felt like it was kinking pretty hard on how much it sucks to be a woman in the heavenly court, how important and powerful male gods were, how important romance was, etc. And some of that is a particular kind of m/f tropeyness, I think. It's fun thinking of an AU that focuses on goddesses without doing that particular kind of m/f tropeyness.

taking on male self-presentation more or less just by default.

There is something that feels very "default" about "ghost king" to me. Maybe because of the Yama Kings?

And there's probably something interesting about how genderbent Shen Wei (and maybe Kunlun) would relate to Confucianism.

Well. I am intrigued now.

This business of not being told things is getting frustrating

Aww, interesting. Is that something that happens later? I've been pretty okay with how things are progressing mystery-wise, but maybe that's because the charm of seeing the two of them work together still hasn't worn off. And I guess we haven't gotten to the Dixing mysteries yet.

This intrigues me a lot, because it actually does feel very different to me! It doesn't have to, especially in an AU world, but my understanding of Chinese mythology is that it mirrors the Chinese imperial court, with an Emperor and bureaucrats and everything.

This is very interesting! I will need to think about this more.

In the Guardian backstory we have one female deity - Nuwa - and three male deities, including Kunlun. I'll have to think more about how gender roles work there.

Yama Kings

Okay, after you read the novel I'll love to hear what connections you see there.

And there's probably something interesting about how genderbent Shen Wei (and maybe Kunlun) would relate to Confucianism.

That is a very interesting question! I'm also wondering what canon Shen Wei thinks of it, and if the novelverse and dramaverse versions might have different takes.

Is that something that happens later?

There are definitely more mysteries that get introduced after where you are - about Dixing, about Shen Wei's backstory, and about Shen Wei's relationship with ZYL. I think I just hit Mystery Overload.

I'll have to think more about how gender roles work

I would be very interested to know what you think!

Also, who are the other two deities? (And are there really only three? o.o I guess this isn't a court system in Guardian!verse!)

I'm also wondering what canon Shen Wei thinks of it, and if the novelverse and dramaverse versions might have different takes.

That does sound really interesting. o.o Novelverse Shen Wei sounds very different, from what I've heard about him.

Hi! Found you via the promptfest post, had to come visit as soon as the username clicked.

Not because I was worried he was Really Bad, more the opposite - there is nothing that I love in a narrative more than a good villain redemption arc, really nothing, and I felt like canon was horribly teasing me to give me the possibility of one with a character so delicious.
Shen Wei had a very melodramatic speech in one of the early episodes where he sort of implied that he was the general of a defeated army and the Treaty the best he could do. Canon is ... not that. (You'll get to it eventually.) One AU that I'd sort of like to see written, I think, is one where Shen Wei was actually on the losing side back then and dealing with the consequences of his actions – a sort of former honorable opponent. I thought they were gearing up for something like that + Zhao Yunlan defeating him in the past (I was spoiled for the time travel) but then we didn't get it and while I do enjoy what we did get, I am also slightly wistful for what I thought I was getting.

When he said that line about sunflowers inevitably reaching towards the sun I couldn't help but feel his pain, no matter how murdery he was being.
Yes! I am glad someone appreciates evil murderbirb Ye Zun, who is the greatest woobie of all time and deserved to be got out of the pillar and not condemned to an eternity of suffering.

Guardian does have some people switch sides, but it's more side-switching and less remorse/redemption. The big message is that you should talk to the people you have problems with instead of just assuming.

I am so happy to see you here and joining my Ye Zun feelingsplurge. I am OTPing Ye Zun/light so hard it hurts right now, and yes he needs cuddles with his gege too. Thank you for helping provide them. Your fics are a light in the dark places that canon is going and I'm so grateful.

Shen Wei had a very melodramatic speech in one of the early episodes where he sort of implied that he was the general of a defeated army and the Treaty the best he could do.

Yes! Thank you for reminding me. I think I took that speech at face value, that he at least feels responsible for some of the awful that has happened to Dixing, whether or not he actually was.

One AU that I'd sort of like to see written, I think, is one where Shen Wei was actually on the losing side back then and dealing with the consequences of his actions – a sort of former honorable opponent. I thought they were gearing up for something like that + Zhao Yunlan defeating him in the past (I was spoiled for the time travel) but then we didn't get it and while I do enjoy what we did get, I am also slightly wistful for what I thought I was getting.

I think we are on the same page here, that was also more or less what I thought we were getting. Either ZYL defeating him in the past, or alternatively him betraying (or feeling like he betrayed) Dixing for ZYL. I think one reason that I fell for hard for Ye Zun is that he does actually think that Shen Wei betrayed everyone (or at least he's telling that story) and it was a story that I was already sort of wanting and thefore predisposed to believe. So fine, evil villain's mind-manipulations got to me, I guess I'll have to live with that. (::hugs woobie villain through pillar::)

evil murderbirb Ye Zun, who is the greatest woobie of all time and deserved to be got out of the pillar and not condemned to an eternity of suffering.

It brings me joy just to see this sentence in a comment on my journal.

Your fics are a light in the dark places that canon is going and I'm so grateful.
♥ Thank you! I am so glad. Ye Zun deserves to be a happy sunflower in the Sunlight while getting gege cuddles (and food). Melt the Hallows and release their poor prisoner to a more humane prison, if nothing else!

he at least feels responsible for some of the awful that has happened to Dixing, whether or not he actually was
Oh, he definitely feels responsible for the things, even the ones he wasn't there to affect.

(I'm also really looking forward to what you think of everything once you've watched the show through, as it's consistently very good about showing a Thing and then later giving context to the Thing through flashback revelations, basically.)

So fine, evil villain's mind-manipulations got to me, I guess I'll have to live with that. (::hugs woobie villain through pillar::)
If there's enough of us, we can form a chain of huggers to completely encircle his pillar!

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Guardian and me, May 2020

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