waterscroll | SLBP Nobunaga route through chapter 5

So far I'm mostly getting myself through this route by enjoying the moments with Mitsuhide and reminding myself that MC gets to live happily ever after with him in a different route. Because so far Nobunaga is kind of a horror.

Not going to summarize the route, but one comment:

What the FUCK is this Hades/Persephone nonsense, her pledging herself to the Lord of Hell in exchange for one piece of candy.

First of all, why is there a Hades/Persephone reference in a Japanese historical dating sim?

Second...why did she go along with it? It feels very under-explained in the moment. She'd just been though something which gave her reason not to trust him. It feels like the scene was missing a line. Something like, "She thought to herself, she is already trapped in his service and will not be permitted to leave, she might as well take whatever sweetness and hope for healing is offered." Or, "She knew it was a seduction, but in that moment she couldn't help but be compelled by this strange and fascinating man." As it is, she just looks silly.

ETA: I do have strong feelings about Hades/Persephone imagery in general. Which are: I am in favor, but only when they are both actual deities, since if they're not it always feels to me like it's sort of missing the point. (The dubcon in the myth makes sense when it is about seasons, life and death and such inevitabilities. I generally DO NOT CONSENT to winter happening, and yet here it is.) But, as established in Mitsuhide's act 2, Nobunaga thinks he's a god. Is MC going to become a goddess? Are they Lord and Lady of Hell? Of generative destruction? Is this game going to live up to the over-the-top WTF symbolism that it just threw at me, or is Nobunaga just a creepy arrogant dude?

And then he says she's been trying to seduce him and has wanted him all along, and I'm not sure what to think. Because yes, she/I did want him, I guess, from the beginning of the route, because I voluntarily chose this route. But in-game she isn't acting like she wants him. But I know she does, or will, because I know what route I'm on. I really do not want to admit that he's right here, but I sort of have to.

I'm just gonna remind myself, I'm just here for the history. And if I hate this route I can replay Mitsuhide's when I'm done to make myself feel better.

ETA: And this is such mood whiplash coming right after Nobunaga's Caged in Desire ES, in which it is completely 10,000% clear that she wants him and is just nervous and inexperienced, and by the time he pressures her for sex she has said explicitly and in words that yes she wants it very much, she's just too nervous to say so in the moment. It's quite sweet actually, he's being all domineering but only in order to give her what she has said she wants. He also shows a lot of care and affection for her. That's not at all how things are going down in the MS and it is disconcerting me.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

scytale

HE IS A HORROR AND HE IS GOING TO STAY A HORROR, AND THANK YOU FOR SAYING IT.

I actually completely forgot the konpeito scene until you mentioned it! Either it happened before I started taking notes or I just didn't care enough to take notes. He told her it was medicine or something, iirc?

It does look very silly that she believed him. (MC's gullibility depends on what the story needs, I swear.)

I didn't actually get a Hades/Persephone vibe out of it, but yeah, I can see it! In my head, MC was playing out the "I will swear allegiance to you" tropes of chivalric romances, which made what happened next even more wtf.

And then he says she's been trying to seduce him and has wanted him all along, and I'm not sure what to think. Because yes, she/I did want him, I guess, from the beginning of the route, because I voluntarily chose this route. But in-game she isn't acting like she wants him. But I know she does, or will, because I know what route I'm on. I really do not want to admit that he's right here, but I sort of have to.

This is an interesting meta point. I hadn't really thought of the way that otome games basically are a seduction, conveniently obscured so that the MC never does any seducing (she just accidentally ends up at the right castle and says all the right things, funny how that happens).

I hope the history ends up living up to expectations!

From:

waterscroll

He told her it was medicine or something, iirc?

Yeah, and she said (or thought) that she could use the medicine for her mother's bad back. But he was lounging around and being seductive and it was obviously a seduction scene.

The Konpetio comes up again a few chapters later (I burned through chapter tickets and am now on chapter 8) when Nobunaga is sending her all these kimonos and she's not into them but he sends her a jar of kompetio and she feels all warm and goes to him and pledges that she will be there for him. I feel like since it circles around again it's definitely significant, and the second time there's no pretense that it's a medicine. Instead it reminds her of that he saved her.

It occurred to me that at this point in history sugar was rare and only obtainable through foreign trade, which Nobunaga is making possible. For people who aren't used to it, it probably has powerful emotional effects. In Mitsuhide's route MC is always giving sugary desserts to Nobunaga to pacify him, here he's using it on her. It feels like an oddly complicated symbol for MC and Nobunaga's relationship.

otome games basically are a seduction, conveniently obscured so that the MC never does any seducing (she just accidentally ends up at the right castle and says all the right things, funny how that happens).

Yes! Although I prefer when my otome MCs are a little more active, even when they're not you're setting them up to do *exactly* the thing that the guy you want will find most seductive.

From:

scytale

But he was lounging around and being seductive and it was obviously a seduction scene.

Heh, I just figured he was naturally seductive! I'm pretty bad at picking up those cues.

The scene where she gets the jar of kompeito actually made me awww at the time; I think part of it is that it felt that he was finally seeing her as herself, instead of just a woman he's trying to bribe into fucking him. And it comes at the end of a long battle, in which she keeps getting the same gifts, as if that's going to change anything. And her getting the entire jar, when he'd only promised her a single piece, felt significant, too. The kompeito has much more emotional significance to him than a bunch of kimonos he's rich enough to buy, so it's both something of more worth than the kimonos; it's also an admission he was wrong about her.

I really like that scene.

I agree, it feels like a complicated symbol. And I think it's interesting how MC is always using sugary desserts to pacify him (and I think with Ieyasu too, who also has a lot of the same volatility). The way the game uses the MC's cooking is just really interesting, in general.

Yes! Although I prefer when my otome MCs are a little more active, even when they're not you're setting them up to do *ehxactly* the thing that the guy you want will find most seductive.

I've heard this from others, too!

I find the different aspects of otome (game, story, self-insert fantasy) really interesting, and I have a hard time figuring out how I relate to all of them! I think I usually tend to view picking the options in otome more as writing fanfic were I really like the character and want particular narrative beats to happen (romance, no tragic deaths). And sometimes I just roll my eyes and go along with what the game wants me to do, because I'm a completionist and I don't want the heroine to die tragically. But sometimes I self-insert, and sometimes I self-insert into the love interest. *shrug*?

From:

waterscroll

Just got to the point where she goes to his bed willingly...after making him kompetio...It's not very good kompetio but he values that she made it, showing that he values her service and not just the pleasure she gives him. It's a great scene, and it makes sense that this is what would finally convince her.

It's so striking how since the beginning she's been clear that she doesn't want to be Nobunaga's concubine but she does want to serve him. It's not entirely clear why, it's not sexual attraction. It's also not the way he's advanced her career as a cook, although he definitely has, but although this is important to her she doesn't seem to notice. And it's also not that she believes in his vision for the country. But it's also not clear why Mitsuhide and Hideyoshi are so determined to serve him even when he's being terrible. Personal magnetism? His overwhelming confidence combined with intense neediness? Whatever it is, it's working on me too. *I'm* even starting to find him fascinating and compelling, as much as I hate him and he's TERRIBLE and THE WORST.

Oh and I just saw the scene with Mtsuhide cursing Nobunaga in the garden for attacking Mt. Hiei. It hurt so much! I imagined my MC going over to him and whispering to him that it's ok, in another universe they're married and she's going to help him get through this and then love him forever. He was a little confused but it made him feel a bit better.

Edited Date: 2019-12-20 05:26 pm (UTC)

From:

scytale

It's not very good kompetio but he values that she made it, showing that he values her service and not just the pleasure she gives him. It's a great scene, and it makes sense that this is what would finally convince her.

:D

Personal magnetism? His overwhelming confidence combined with intense neediness? Whatever it is, it's working on me too. *I'm* even starting to find him fascinating and compelling, as much as I hate him and he's TERRIBLE and THE WORST.

I know, right? I was so furious at the game when it made me start to...not like him, but actually have feelings beyond "smash burn destroy".

I think the confidence and neediness is a part of it! I think his generosity and the consideration he shows to his people and the loyalty are parts of it too -- especially since he just surprises you with it, sometimes. He also does have a vision for the country, once he gets past all the war stuff; he really wants perfection and while that's misguided, it has its appeal.

I think there's also something very...heroic (in the ancient Greek hero sense) about him? He's tempestuous and temperamental, but...you believe he'll get shit done. And I think that means a lot, especially in a time of chaos and war.

For Hideyoshi, I feel like a lot of the draw is Nobunaga's power and that Nobunaga respects him, in spite of the fact he isn't of samurai birth. I'm remembering that conversation in which Hideyoshi is 100% kinking on how the MC can rise to power if she bangs Nobunaga and maybe even become (gasp!) a samurai wife.

For me, act 1 is really about the curiosity and tension of figuring out who Nobunaga is. We get to see his masks and a little bit of who he is behind the masks. And it's fascinating how they undercut both his shows of cruelty and kindness -- the original kompeito jar turning out to be from Katsuie and Hideyoshi, for instance!

I imagined my MC going over to him and whispering to him that it's ok, in another universe they're married and she's going to help him get through this and then love him forever. He was a little confused but it made him feel a bit better.

This is very sweet and it makes me happy. <3

(From a fanficcing perspective, I'm also intrigued by the idea of the MC knowing about the routes! I've read something similar for other gaming fandoms before.)

From:

waterscroll

the original kompeito jar turning out to be from Katsuie and Hideyoshi, for instance!

Wait, did it? I thought it was that Nobunaga misunderstood what was going on and thought that she changed her mind because Katsuie and Hideyoshi went to talk to her when it was really because of the kompetio...agh damn that's dark, and damn Hideyoshi's good.

I was a little shipping MC/Hideyoshi during that scene and kind of wanted Hidyoshi to take MC aside and explain to her how he's been using sex to get ahead. Then they could bond over having sex with people they don't like for survival and have a little friends-with-benefits mutual understanding recreational sex before she goes to Nobunaga.

I'm also intrigued by the idea of the MC knowing about the routes! I've read something similar for other gaming fandoms before.

Interesting! I hadn't thought of it as a fanfic idea but here's how it could play out as one: after the happy ending of Mitsuhide's route, after they are happily married for many decades, at the end of their lives they talk about how their one regret is that they couldn't save Nobunaga. They decide to pray that in her next lifetime MC will reincarnate as Nobunaga's mistress, in the hope that this will make a difference and that she will be able to help him towards enlightenment. Neither of them exactly know this backstory, but they might get flashes of it, and it helps explain why MC is so determined to serve Nobunaga and why Mitsuhide is willing to push her in that direction, because they both know on some level that it is what they decided together long ago.

Thank you for your thoughts about why Nobunaga is compelling! There's so much to think about there. I'm sure I'll have a lot more to say in a few more chapters.

From:

scytale

Wait, did it? I thought it was that Nobunaga misunderstood what was going on and thought that she changed her mind because Katsuie and Hideyoshi went to talk to her when it was really because of the kompetio...agh damn that's dark, and damn Hideyoshi's good.

I think there was a scene where he asks Mitsuhide what Mitsuhide did to get MC to accept, and Mitsuhide mentions that it was Katsuie and Hideyoshi? I remember the scene very vividly and my own sense of betrayal, so I think I'm not imagining this.

I got the implication that Mitsuhide was the one sending the kimonos, because I remember how he was like, "but you don't like it?" after she vented at him. And there was a line about him looking hurt.

My general impression was "Nobunaga outsourced his seduction to Mitsuhide, Mitsuhide went about it in the most inoffensive way possible and also used that as an opportunity to give her gifts"

Gah, not being able to replay things is terrible!

I was a little shipping MC/Hideyoshi during that scene and kind of wanted Hidyoshi to take MC aside and explain to her how he's been using sex to get ahead. Then they could bond over having sex with people they don't like for survival and have a little friends-with-benefits mutual understanding recreational sex before she goes to Nobunaga.

I love the idea of MC using sex as a tool. Yay for active protagonists. <3 And there is potentially good porn potential with like, Hideyoshi teaching her how best to please Nobunaga ~~and getting really into it himself~~.

...Right, Hideyoshi/MC is going on my list of exchange nominations.

Interesting! I hadn't thought of it as a fanfic idea but here's how it could play out as one

Oh my goodness, I love this so much. :D And it says so much about them that they would do this. I think it fits with a lot of the things we see in Nobunaga's route, and okay, this is glorious tragedy. <3

I am very eager for you to get to Act 2. JOIN ME IN THE EVEN MORE MISERABLE MISERY. :D

Edited Date: 2019-12-20 07:38 pm (UTC)

From:

waterscroll

I got the implication that Mitsuhide was the one sending the kimonos, because I remember how he was like, "but you don't like it?" after she vented at him. And there was a line about him looking hurt.

Oh damn, you're right.

I think there was a scene where he asks Mitsuhide what Mitsuhide did to get MC to accept, and Mitsuhide mentions that it was Katsuie and Hideyoshi? I remember the scene very vividly and my own sense of betrayal, so I think I'm not imagining this.

Yeah I remember that too, I had just interpreted it differently, that Mitsuhide and Nobunaga thought it was Hideyoshi's persuading when it was really the kompetio that Nobunaga had sent. And that it didn't occur to Nobunaga that his kompetio had made the difference since she had so definitively rejected him last time he tried seducing her with kompetio, so when he sent it ir was less a seduction and more a surrender. (Like, here, have the whole jar, I'm going to stop pretending it's magic and won't ask anything in exchange.) But your interpretation is pretty convincing, especially if Mitsuhide sent the kimonos.

It does make me ship MC/Hideyoshi in that scene even more, especially if in their honest and frank conversation about using sex as a tool he admits what he did. And yeah, he'd be an excellent teacher. She might have to stop by for refresher lessons, even when she's already sleeping with Nobunaga. It's not like he's going to stop sleeping with Ramnaru so he's got no right to object.

What exchange? I could use a push to write fanfic in this fandom.

I'm burning through chapter tickets this week so I'll see you in hell...with the actual lord of hell...very soon!

From:

scytale

She might have to stop by for refresher lessons, even when she's already sleeping with Nobunaga. It's not like he's going to stop sleeping with Ramnaru so he's got no right to object.

:D

Even if Nobunaga did, I feel like Hideyoshi is manipulative enough to talk him out of it. He's really just banging her for the good of her relationship with Nobunaga. He's kind that way.

What exchange? I could use a push to write fanfic in this fandom.

I requested SLBP (and Hakuouki!) in the New Years flash exchange (since I'm going to be staying home for the holidays) - https://archiveofourown.org/collections/nysfe

I've never tried nominating SLBP for exchanges before, so I have no idea if there are writers around, but I think there's at least one other Hakuouki fan in the flash exchange circuit!

I'll nominate SLBP and Hakuouki for Chocolate Box too. (I know I've seen someone request Hakuouki in the past, which may be relevant to your interests!)

ETA: Please keep me updated on your progress and thoughts! :D It's very fun to talk to you about the routes, and I really cannot get enough of hearing about people complaining about Nobunaga.

Edited Date: 2019-12-20 07:59 pm (UTC)

From:

waterscroll

Unfortunately I can't make the timing for the first one work for me, but I'll think about chocolate box when it comes around. But if you post your requests I'll try to write one if I have the time.

From:

waterscroll

Gah, not being able to replay things is terrible!

OH WAIT. Here's a way to replay things:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVJcGj7WYFZnLZ7IfYLXSeZ8QmjX_RMzc

At least until it gets taken down, which could be any minute. I'm unfortunately not going to have a chance to look at it until late tomorrow night at the earliest, but if you do let me know what you fund.

From:

scytale

This person is my hero. <3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=716y6YT9V2w&list=PLVJcGj7WYFZnLZ7IfYLXSeZ8QmjX_RMzc is the specific ep, which covers it all.

I think a lot of what convinced me that Mitsuhide was responsible for the kimonos was the earlier conversation between them, when he shows up at her room to bow and convince her to stay.

MC: "Lord Mitsuhide, please, get up."
Mitsuhide: "It's my job to convey Lord Nobunaga's orders and ensure their acceptance. I can't leave so easily."
I can't stand to see someone like Lord Mitsuhide pressing his forehead to the floor of a Samurai House.
MC: "I know...I know, so please get up."

And I just figured everything else was a continuation of that.

Some snippets from the actual conversations:

MC: "Lord Mitsuhide...there was a kimono delivered to my room yesterday. Is it from...:

Mitsuhide: "Oh, yes...beautiful, isn't it!" [with the half-smile face!]

Lord Mitsuhide says, as if it were hardly anything at all.

MC: "I don't need something that luxurious. What would I even do with it?"

Mitsuhide: "What do you mean?" [frowny face]

Then, after they discuss whether she should stay in disguise:

MC: "B-but...even if I reveal myself as a woman, I don't have to do it in something like that, do I? I'm here to work, so..."

Lord Mitsuhide looks at me. For a split second, he looks...wounded.

Mitsuhide: "Well...you're not wrong about that..."

Also, I totally forgot the scene where Nobunaga makes Mitsuhide bow to MC. :(
I totally forgot how much I shipped MC/Mitsuhide during this episode.

After she swears to serve Nobunaga:

The first thing Lord Nobunaga does the next morning is question Mitsuhide on what persuaded MC to join him.

Mitsuhide: "It was not me, Milord. It appears that Hideyoshi and Katsuie managed it in secret."

Nobunaga: "Did they now. So focused, and yet so reckless. It's not as if I needed them to..."

Lord Nobunaga trails off, his eyes lighting up with a sudden realization.

Nobunaga: "So...that's it... of course."

Nobunaga: "If a frontal assault falls...then we just have to attack from within."
"Just like Katsuie and Hideyoshi did with MC."

This wasn't as strongly kompeito related as I thought.

But whether Nobunaga sent the kompeito and assumed it didn't make a difference or sent Mitsuhide to do his seducing for him... I think we can conclude Nobunaga is sulky and childish and terrible at feelings. And I think, deep down, he's convinced that he is unlikeable or even undeserving of being liked -- either he has to have Mitsuhide do his seduction for him, or else he assumes his own gestures matter less than two people talking to MC. I think that might play into the way he seems to almost court unlikeability, through his bravado and his ruthlessness, too.

From:

waterscroll

I haven't had a chance to watch that scene yet but I read up to end of chapter 12 and I was not prepared for how MC/Mitsuhide shippy this route was going to be. I have never seen a route work so hard to convince me that I made the wrong choice at the route split.

(Is Nobunaga's act 2 going to make me hate Mitsuhide? Please don't, route, my heart can't handle that.)

There's nothing like this in Mitsuhide's route btw, they just love each other and while there are challenges in making it work there's no love triangle or anything like that.

Meanwhile I'm just going to feed Mitsuhide my onigiri, put a minifigure of him in my castle and furnish it with items from his route plus one of those battle item posters saying he's the best, and then put on my Lady Akechi kimono. Then I'm going to go cry.

Then I think I'm going to do the Divine ending, since Hero Person put up the Noble ending.

From:

waterscroll

Watching through the Noble (his POV ending) on youtube now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q97Lq0awsME&list=PLVJcGj7WYFZnLZ7IfYLXSeZ8QmjX_RMzc&index=17&t=0s
...there's lots of good stuff in it, but at about 19:30 in his POV he thinks to himself that he sent the kimonos, when she comes to him wearing them.

(I get really pissy at the game when it does this, putting essential information into one ending or the other so you have to do them both.)

Okay, now going to play the Divine ending. Will have more to say soon.

From:

waterscroll

Just finished Divine ending and now I am fully caught up to the agony. Damn. Nobunaga is terrible and the worst and I hate him and he is freakishly compelling and agh the feelings.

Gonna stop burning chapter tickets and start act 2 tomorrow.