waterscroll | SLBP Act 2 Nobunaga to chapter 6

...again posting my notes.

Continuing to be convinced that playing this route after Mitsuhide's was a poor life choice, since it's hard for me to read this route as anything but Mitsuhide's tragic arc. And yes, his own route is also his tragedy, but there at least he has a little bit of agency. Not much, but at least enough to draw the line of where Nobunaga has to be stopped. Here Nobunaga sucks all the agency out of everyone around him. Also, playing this route after Mitsuhide's gives me very little patience for MC's Nobunaga-apologetics.

As soon as there is an uprising at Hogan-ji, MC is very willing to conclude that Kennyo has just been playing at peace all along. Which, ok, maybe he was. (Or maybe he wasn't, and the uprising isn't his fault, which is a possibility that a random retainer raises but that MC doesn't consider since Nobunaga doesn't.)

She then concludes:

"It has taken me far too long to realize it now, I know...but I finally understand that the men of Hogan-ji are not ones to associate with. Knowing that, I also realize that the blaze at Mount Hiei, while extreme, was set because it had to be."

MC, remember how you risked your life to save people from Mount Hiei and almost died with them? Of course you don't, because that was in a different route where you made better choices.

Meanwhile Nobunaga is depressed because the fight with Shingen wasn't really the last, and now Kennyo isn't so easy to defeat. And isn't going to be, because lots of people support him, partly because lots of people think Nobunaga is terrible. While in Mitsuhide's route MC sees the people's support for Kennyo as evidence that Kennyo was giving them something that they needed, here she just sees it as evidence that Kennyo will be hard to defeat. She overhears various random people talking about how they need the faith that Kennyo gives them *even more* now that Nobunaga is causing all these wars and killing all these people, but it doesn't register.

On the other hand it's not clear how much this route is supposed to be consistent with Mitsuhide's route. In Mitsuhide's route he's very much part of the destruction of Hogan-ji, to his great regret. Here he walks away from the Oda before it happens. Hogan-ji is still bad, Nobunaga kills everyone trying to run away, but it's not explicitly stated that he killed civilians, which is what caused Mitsuhide to break in his own route. (Although if Nobunaga killed everyone fleeing maybe it's still implied that he did.)

Speaking of Hogan-ji, Kennyo has an incredible death scene, which I need to record for later overthinking:

Kennyo:...
He is just sitting on the floor, his eyes closed serenely.

Nobunaga: I begrudgingly praise you for not running from this place with your tail between your legs.

Kennyo: Even if I ran, there would be nothing waiting for me when I stopped.
Kennyo opens his eyes now, answering quietly, his voice full of peace and acceptance.

Kennyo: I am sure that the Buddha has led me to facing you here.

Nobunaga: You believe in neither the Gods nor the Buddha, why speak of them now?

Kennyo: Ha...you really are fool, aren't you? You have yet to realize anything, is that it? Why did you seek Divine rule? You have power, prosperity and fame...and now that it has come to you, what has it given in return?

Nobunaga glares at Kennyo while he makes the sacred gestures.

Nobunaga: I have no need to explain anything to you.

Kennyo: Attachments, desires...these things are an endless cycle in this world. As long as they still exist, man will never be saved. However, man cannot exist without their desires. In other words...there is no salvation for us. That is all the more reason that we must create the Buddha.

Nobunaga: Get to the point.

Kennyo: How many people have died for the sake of your foolish grab at divinity? How much sorrow have you brought upon us? If both wars and desire are nothing but foolish things created by this world...I will destroy the one who brought them into being.

Nobunaga: You honestly believe that false teachings can save my people?

Kennyo: If that is what you are asking, then I would like to ask you this. Has there been, or will there ever be, a time when your desires - or the wars driven by them - will save anyone at all?

(I'll call that Kennyo 1, Nobunaga 0, and I'd like a Kennyo route now please.)

So, I am finding a lot to think about in this route. Unfortunately I'm not enjoying romancing Nobunaga very much. I might be in the wrong place for it. I had the same feeling the first time I did the Hijikata route from Hakuouki, he's another Bad Decisions Bear and I was just mad at him through the entire route. But then the second time I was in a different place and overidentified with him and cried a lot. So maybe I'll need to do Nobunaga's route again in a few months.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

scytale

I also copied down the Hiei quote. It was very...wtf and gave me chills, just how accepting she was. And her logic doesn't follow, and Nobunaga already knew it was a temporary truce anyway.

And everything you say about Mitsuhide route MC makes her sound even more amazing, oh my goodness. Going from that to this sounds rough.

In Mitsuhide's route he's very much part of the destruction of Hogan-ji, to his great regret. Here he walks away from the Oda before it happens. Hogan-ji is still bad, Nobunaga kills everyone trying to run away, but it's not explicitly stated that he killed civilians, which is what caused Mitsuhide to break in his own route. (Although if Nobunaga killed everyone fleeing maybe it's still implied that he did.)

Yeah, iirc they skip over Hongan-Ji, except for Kennyo? They also seem to frame it as more of a conflict of beliefs; I don't get the sense that the villagers are upset because he burned Hongan-Ji and killed civilians, but rather because of killing Kennyo and burning Hongan-Ji. It seems more about the religion/faith aspect?

I didn't know Mitsuhide was there in his own route though that makes sense from a storytelling perspective. I wonder if this Mitsuhide left precisely so they wouldn't have to show him grappling with seeing what happened at Hongan-Ji.

I'll call that Kennyo 1, Nobunaga 0, and I'd like a Kennyo route now please.)

Everyone who dies by Nobunaga's hand in this route first gets to give him an incredibly accurate The Reason You Suck speech.

And thanks for saving Kennyo's death speech! He is interesting and I'm not completely sure what to make of and how to feel about his philosophy.

So, I am finding a lot to think about in this route. Unfortunately I'm not enjoying romancing Nobunaga very much

I find Nobunaga an interesting study in how perfectionism and black-and-white thinking and terrible coping mechanisms can go horribly wrong. I can see why he does the things he does and how all of it is a result to his own suffering and the mental traps he got himself in. I feel bad for him, but yeah...still don't want to romance him. Especially since MC doesn't seem all that happy.

He really does need to be away from people so he can (a) stop doing terrible things and (b) face his problems. Maybe in a different world, he could have spent some time with Ohana in her hermit retreat.

From:

waterscroll

I don't get the sense that the villagers are upset because he burned Hongan-Ji and killed civilians, but rather because of killing Kennyo and burning Hongan-Ji. It seems more about the religion/faith aspect?

There was one line in which a villager comments that they need Kennyo even more now that Nobunaga is causing all those wars and killing all those people, but I think it's more the people Nobunaga conscripted than the civilians he killed. In Mitsuhide's route the villagers are mostly concerned about the religion/faith aspect also, but Mitsuhide himself gets pushed over the edge when it's not just monks but civilian monks that he's ordered to kill. (I think? I'll look out for that next time.)

I wonder if this Mitsuhide left precisely so they wouldn't have to show him grappling with seeing what happened at Hongan-Ji.

I've seen Mitsuhide described as 'too perfect' in fandom, and I didn't understand where that came from, and oh, I guess it comes from the Nobunaga route. In his own route he's bad at communicating and at setting boundaries and when he finally draws a line it's after he's committed more than his fair share of atrocities on Nobunaga's orders, including at Hogan-ji. But in Nobunaga's route he has no agency and we only see him as Nobunaga's helpless conscience, so I guess he does kind of come across as boringly perfect.

And thanks for saving Kennyo's death speech! He is interesting and I'm not completely sure what to make of and how to feel about his philosophy.

I thought he made a really strong case for himself in that speech and convinced me that he is acting out of some genuine conviction...at the end I was wondering if I misunderstood him all along and what seemed like disbelief is more like the "If you see the Buddha kill him" line, that his seeming rejection of belief was a kind of faith that I just wasn't able to recognize.

But I'd need to get to know him from a POV other than Nobunaga's in order to figure that out. Looks like IkeSen will get a Kennyo route eventually, wouldn't it be great to see one in SLBP?

I find Nobunaga an interesting study in how perfectionism and black-and-white thinking and terrible coping mechanisms can go horribly wrong.

Did you like Hijikata's route? It's a similar kind of thing, the Bad Decisions Bear who goes after the impossible dream and gets all his friends killed. And mostly fails but in some important ways succeeds. Is he admirable or horrifying? With Hijikata I kept going back and forth. With Nobunaga I haven't yet had a moment of finding him admirable but I haven't ruled out the possibility that I will one day.

But yeah MC has seemed very unhappy the entire route. Also I can't think of anything she's done other than dither about whether or not to have sex with Nobunaga, and SLBP MC usually isn't this passive.

From:

scytale

But in Nobunaga's route he has no agency and we only see him as Nobunaga's helpless conscience, so I guess he does kind of come across as boringly perfect.

That actually comes across as frustratingly imperfect to me!

I wonder how much of it is the emotional beats that his route hits (or doesn't hit).

I thought he made a really strong case for himself in that speech and convinced me that he is acting out of some genuine conviction...at the end I was wondering if I misunderstood him all along and what seemed like disbelief is more like the "If you see the Buddha kill him" line, that his seeming rejection of belief was a kind of faith that I just wasn't able to recognize.

Oh, I hadn't thought of that. I'm fascinated now, too.

At the end, I definitely thought he was acting out of conviction and that he was more right about the nature of desire and the world than Nobunaga are, but I was having trouble with his cynicism and his apparent greediness. I was buying into Nobunaga and MC's perspective that Kennyo is mostly running a con and a hypocrite.

But now I wonder. The cynicism and faith and worldliness might not be all that incompatible?

It feels very much like he's toying with Nobunaga here -- at once mocking, asking questions and challenging assumptions, and trying to push Nobunaga out of his comfort zone.

Rereading the conversation, I definitely get the same feel I do from Zen. If only because it makes my brain hurt. :P Like there's the surface level of what he's saying, which seems contradictory, and yet, there's something deeper.

I will 100% take the Kennyo route. Or at least an event story where he and the MC cook and talk philosophy.

I am particularly intrigued by this:

Kennyo: I am sure that the Buddha has led me to facing you here.

Nobunaga: You believe in neither the Gods nor the Buddha, why speak of them now?

Kennyo: Ha...you really are fool, aren't you? You have yet to realize anything, is that it?

Did you like Hijikata's route? It's a similar kind of thing, the Bad Decisions Bear who goes after the impossible dream and gets all his friends killed. And mostly fails but in some important ways succeeds. Is he admirable or horrifying?

I still haven't played Hijikata's route, unfortunately. My otome playing has basically been SLBP -- everything not tickety on a phone takes a lot more concentration. I need to get back to finishing Hakuoki (and Nightshade) in the New Year...but it requires more of a time commitment. And it takes some psyching myself up to get ready for the All My Friends Die Simulators. :P

In the other routes and in the common routes, I liked Hijikata as a character and, well, the poetry of his convictions. Admirable as a fictional character, beautiful as an example of tragedy, and fascinating.

Even in game, there were things that made me queasy -- the torture, the furies, the killing. The Shinsengumi themselves honestly bother me more than Hijikata's continued fighting, mostly because he seems pretty accepting and understanding when people actually do leave (at least, when the captains do? I don't know if it applies to the foot soldiers).

I can't quite figure out what makes Nobunaga and Hijikata feel very different to me... I think some of it is that Hijikata feels a lot more self-aware to me? Also, Hijikata seems more focused on ruining his own life than everyone else's the way Nobunaga does and I can pretend everyone who follows him follows him willingly. And there isn't so much casual misogyny with Hijikata, which is often a dealbreaker for me.

...maybe it's just that Hijikata and Chizuru's interactions frustrate me less than Nobunaga's and the SLBP MC's.

...I'll play Hijikata's route next. I'm scared. o.o

Also I can't think of anything she's done other than dither about whether or not to have sex with Nobunaga, and SLBP MC usually isn't this passive.

Hey! She also dithered about whether or not he's a bad person! :P

But in all seriousness -- yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that Nobunaga sucks the agency out of everyone around him. It becomes all about his needs and desires, and MC's turning point in this route when she decides to be loyal to him (...for some reason), no matter the many many clear costs to herself. :|

From:

waterscroll

I'm thinking more about Kennyo's speech and it keeps getting more coherent the more I think about it. Something like: Stories about the Buddha are necessary for salvation, but ultimately our own salvation is ours to accomplish. Kennyo's cynicism also makes some sense, to be a real-world religious leader you need to think about practical things, including how to raise money. And including stopping tyrants, if that turns out to be necessary.

Once, after I complimented a rabbi for something, he told me a story about a rabbi who sinned and went to hell for his sins. On the day of atonement he was allowed, just for that day, to lead prayer services in hell. He led a beautiful, profound service, and everyone in hell was deeply moved by it. They all repented and were immediately accepted into heaven until the only person left in hell was the rabbi. I haven't been able to find a source for the story, but it strikes me as a description of religious leadership that can sometimes be accurate, that a great leader can sometimes save everyone but themselves. Anyway, Kennyo reminds me of that story.

About Hijikata: He's definitely not rapey like Nobunaga, and he doesn't want to be a god (just a Samurai). I found him fairly easy to genderbend without really changing anything about his arc. (Instead of wanting to prove that a group of peasants can be samurai, she wants to prove that a group of peasant woman can be samurai. Same diff, more or less.) So you might like Hijikata better than Nobunaga.

Edited Date: 2019-12-31 08:17 pm (UTC)

From:

scytale

That's a really great story -- thank you for sharing.

For Kennyo, I keep getting stuck on this line:

If both wars and desire are nothing but foolish things created by this world...I will destroy the one who brought them into being.

I think "the one" refers to "this world" here, where his goal is to turn people's mind to another world? Whereas Nobunaga just wants to perfect the world and see that the desires for peace and prosperity are satisfied.

I think there are some interesting parallels with the situation with act 1 MC, with the kimonos (she actually thinks "Does he honestly think he can buy his way into a woman's heart with expensive little trifles?" at one point). And how in the end it's the kompeito that matters, even though they aren't actually worth anything.

From:

waterscroll

In case you want to know, IkeSen is celebrating Kennyo's birthday now. There are two stories for sale for 900 coins each and one available through a gatcha. I got one of the 900 coin stories and it was the kind of fanservice I'm here for, but crazy expensive for how short it was. Let me know if you want a summary.

From:

scytale

Thanks! I don't need a detailed summary, but I'd definitely be curious to know your thoughts on it and the Kennyos, compared (I think Kennyo in IkeSen is angry and out for revenge?)!

I'm intrigued by the idea of IkeSen!MC with Kennyo - she's so materialistic and modern (and doesn't seem very spiritually-inclined).

From:

waterscroll

IkeSen Kennyo is a vengeful terrorist, but I'm oddly sympathetic towards him, mostly because I'm annoyed at the way IkeSen completely exonerates Nobunaga and I'm happy for Kennyo to express my anger towards Nobunaga for me.

In the story Kennyo seems to have some sort of connection with the MC but they aren't in a romantic relationship. They spend the night in an isolated hut sheltering from a storm that they're both caught in. Kennyo can tell that MC likes him but he doesn't want to pull her into his life of revenge. They talk and he tells her this, and she says she cares for him anyway. She tells him that she used to want him to give up his revenge but now she understands where he's coming from, and that she just wants him to live until she can see him again.

It's very sweet. IkeSen Kennyo, like SLBP Nobunaga in a way, sees himself as someone who has given up his humanity and turned himself into a demon in service of a greater goal. IkeSen is a less grimdark canon so despite that Kennyo is able to treat MC kindly and respectfully. I liked the little story a lot, althougn $9 was an outrageous price for it. But I'll look forward to the Kennyo route.

From:

scytale

Thanks for the summary!

This does sound sweet and interesting (and so so expensive O_o)! They sound like they have a great dynamic together.

From:

waterscroll

It did seem like a great dynamic, very quiet and reflective.

From:

waterscroll

Some generous person put the IkeSen Kennyo birthday story on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18sMtHQL3S4

and also last year's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xlG9hJNa8Q

Also, apparently the Kennyo route came out on the Japanese app in December. So we'll get it in a year or so, I guess. I am very impatient.

From:

scytale

Yay for YouTubers. :)

Thanks for the links!

I watched this year's, and wow, I really like Kennyo. He is complicated and conflicted and melodramatic and I like his mix of faith and poetry on seasons and birds and ruthlessness. And he has such a gentle smile!

I like the enemies-pretending-not-to-be-attracted-to-each-other thing he and MC have going on, and how solemn the MC is with him. She seems to be actively trying to understand him.

(It actually reminds me a lot of the bit of Masumune's route I played -- she does a lot of work trying to understand his perspective, and their principles clash.)

I'm intrigued by how her modernity will come into play. Her modernity doesn't seem as incompatible with his Buddhism and his former values as I thought they would be.

...I'm also amused by how sweet and light this is, compared to even the lightest SLBP stuff. Everyone is so nice and no one has tried to murder the MC yet!

From:

scytale

Aaaand just watched the second one, and holy shit, she gives him time. And he prays for her, even though he doesn't know if the Buddha will listen to him. <3

I like them a lot ~~and I really hope she sews him something that he can carry with him as a reminder of their time together and what's good in life. Maybe something to do with the seasons or the sky or the light?~~

From:

waterscroll

Yeah I am so hearts-in-eyes about this guy, even knowing everything terrible he's done. Good job IkeSen, I didn't think you had it in you to manipulate my emotions like this, but oh look you have.

I also really like this MC and how thoughtful and reflective she is.